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welcome back everybody

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moving right along as they say get your

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seats [\h__\h] easy this is gonna be a

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killer panel I'm so excited to listen to

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this coming up now we got magicians

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versus psychics is it just me or does

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the whole skeptical thing just sound

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dated like this clip from James Randy's

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2013 amazing meeting conference here is

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the Haiku for magicians versus psychics

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both groups flat-out lie

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you know magicians psychics only once

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honest dated in a Johnny Carson kind of

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way

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it's still amazing to me that just a few

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short years ago real scientists like

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Richard Dawkins and Neil deGrasse Tyson

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really embrace this skeptical nonsense

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that was stirred up by James Randi

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especially since as I tried to explain

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to today's guest Brian Dunning the

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creator and host of the skeptoid podcast

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James Randi has been outed as a liar

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over and over again

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this guy was caught lying over and over

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he lied about Uri Geller he lied about

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Rupert Sheldrake he lied to dozens of

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people about the million-dollar

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challenge and that was find out you know

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the whole thing he lied about his

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background he claimed he was like this

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genius IQ of 186 and he didn't have to

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go to school he had this special I mean

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his whole story was just one lie after

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another and this guy you really consider

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him a mentor in what way was he a mentor

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or someone who you would kind of look up

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to well first of all I want to say I

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don't know anything about any of those

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charges you just threw at him and I I

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don't judge my friends based on what

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other people say about them now skeptics

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still can provide a backdrop if you will

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to the real frontier science that's

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going on and I tried to explain that to

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Brian in this interview but we didn't

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get very far so I'll include some

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additional clips at the end of this show

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but it sure seems to me like this whole

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skeptical thing is over and like Brian's

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new film principles of curiosity the

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result many of the new science

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discoveries you hear about on the TV

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news or read on a consumer focused

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website really are more than likely

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it always sounds a little dated stay

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with me my interview with Brian Dunning

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of skeptoid is next on skeptic

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today we welcome Brian Dunning back to

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skeptic Oh Brian is the creator and host

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of skeptoid a long-running and very

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popular podcast about skepticism and

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he's just released a new documentary

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film titled principles of curiosity

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Brian welcome back to skeptic oh thanks

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so much for joining me

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hey thanks been a long long time a lot

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of water under the bridge it's good to

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be back it has I looked it up was 2009

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oh my gosh

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we've both been doing this for too long

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yes we got into it knowing that it would

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well you know it's funny because I did

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look up that last show but and it's

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interesting I don't know how much we've

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changed which is kind of interesting in

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and of itself but tell me I think a lot

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has been going on you've done a lot of

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episodes on skeptoid and you need to

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bring people up to date on that and then

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on this new movie of yours principles of

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curiosity so give us a brief recap in

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and really Brian you know start with

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kind of your background who you are and

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then a little bit maybe about the show

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all right well uh so my background is in

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computer science and my best academic

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credential is writing for film and

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television from UCLA now it's hard to

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kind of combine those two things and so

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for years and years and years my career

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was basically just doing computer

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science stuff and when podcasting came

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out in 2006 it's like hey here's a

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chance to finally combine my interests

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the writing the entertainment and and

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the science and so I started doing

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skeptoid I found out what podcasts were

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and I listened to a couple of them and I

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remember back then that was probably

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2005-2006 that I first learned about

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them and I guess Steve Jobs head had

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highlighted skepticality

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at one of his keynote speeches and so I

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checked that one out and I'm like ah

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I've heard this yeah I remember

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I've heard that guy James Randi I've

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heard of that before I kind of

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discovered that there was the whole

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skeptical community kind of centered

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around Randy and his amazing meeting and

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all of that stuff so when I started

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doing my podcast which was October 2006

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it was kind of you know my take on the

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usual skeptical issues whether they were

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personal interests of mine or not I just

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kind of started doing shows about what I

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would thought I was supposed to be doing

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shows about and you know I was fortunate

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in that people really responded to my

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show and they liked it and they began

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supporting it and it eventually was able

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to become my full-time job then it

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became a non-profit and now it it's a

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decent little running concern but over

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all of those years the show evolved not

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a whole lot because consistency is super

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important in having a successful podcast

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but the show evolved I'd say mainly in

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terms of the the type of content as it

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shifted more toward my personal interest

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and my personal interests also probably

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evolved just over the course of this

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deep deep exposure to all of these

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topics and I'd say that the kinds of

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subjects that I that I liked the best

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have to do with the science behind urban

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legends events in history that that are

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either misunderstood or misrepresented

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and that's really I think what what I

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would say my true love is like if I cast

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my eye over recent episodes that I did

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one about relic Japanese soldiers

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Japanese you know there's always these

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urban legends about a Japanese soldier

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who comes out of the jungle and he

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doesn't know that the war has ended and

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he stills tries to take people prisoner

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with his rifle was there ever any truth

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to that so I did a show about that then

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there was a really famous UFO incident

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Lonnie Zamora and the Socorro UFO and if

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anyone knows UF ology at all you've

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you've at least heard those names so I

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got to dig in and find out what that was

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all about and find out how that was

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eventually solved you know I try to be

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much more of a science writer at a

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science journalist rather than making my

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own conclusions I report the conclusions

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that the real experts have made and in

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whatever the subject matter is how did

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that lead to this movie principles of

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curiosity yeah so over the years you

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know it's interesting because you find

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out what your listeners respond to by

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them writing in and telling you and what

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I got a lot of positive response was

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from was from teachers teachers were

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using my podcasts in their classrooms

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they were writing up their own course

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where they would send me the course

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where they've created they create a

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whole series of lessons based on groups

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of podcasts that were all in the same

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subject

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so I began that was what that was when

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we kind of changed the company made it

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into a non-profit so you know it's no

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longer some not something that I own

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anymore I now work for the nonprofit as

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an employee I'm not on the board of

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directors there's real people who do all

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of that stuff so it's it's much more

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legitimate and it's much more

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independent and the purpose of the

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nonprofit is to provide free educational

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resources for teachers so we still do

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the podcast and I make sure that the

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podcast is scholarly meets certain

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standards in terms of having the

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references and everything provided it's

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it's free to educators you can get a

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well the whole show is of course free to

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everyone like every podcast is but

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educators get a version of it that

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doesn't include ads and they get

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everything on a USB Drive and things

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like that and so this movie principles

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of curiosity was really the biggest and

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best project that the nonprofit has done

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as you know it's owned separately

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financed project to address the need

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that these teachers have expressed so is

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something I'm super proud of it's free

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to the world it's on YouTube you can see

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it at principles of curiosity calm and

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there's also a fantastic courseware

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package that's on the website that's

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free to download

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and I've got to I've got people right

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now who are promoting it to teachers

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worldwide we're trying to get it in with

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the National Science Teachers

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Association and and all this stuff so

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it's it's really it's really fun it's

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really exciting times and it's it's just

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super rewarding work and I couldn't be

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happier with with what I do for a living

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well that's awesome

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the film is certainly extremely well

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done it looks fantastic so you guys have

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obviously have some skill and production

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so that's well yeah a professional film

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crew actually made the movie I was just

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there I you know I wrote it and showed

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up and did my presentation on camera and

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everything but that was one thing I

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wanted to make sure we covered very well

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from the beginning so it was done with a

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professional production company new role

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productions and you know on all the

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latest greatest camera equipment and

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everything and all that was fun to be a

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part of you know because the reason I

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kind of so curious I've been interested

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in the skeptical community kind of from

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the beginning of this show and there's

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been this kind of head-butting between

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frontier science and the skeptical

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community and you've broadened it I

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understand you know the interest you

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have and the Japanese soldiers from

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world war ii and all that stuff i've

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always stayed interested in kind of

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consciousness science and frontier

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science and in that realm I've always

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been interested in who your audience is

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like you just described and I guess I

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kind of get the science teacher thing at

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like a really low level but you know on

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a more personal level I have a good

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friend really good friend I mean this

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guy I've been to his wedding I know his

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kids he's been to my wedding thirty

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years we was used to work together for a

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long time big fan of your show he

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listens to your show cuz he likes he

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listens to my show because I'm his

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friend but he really listens to your

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show and I'm always curious you know who

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is the kind of person that goes in for

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this kind of thing last time you're on

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the show that long long time ago I tried

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to kind of bridge that gap by saying hey

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here's a topic that

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both kind of know a little bit about and

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I do the same thing here to try and dig

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a little bit deeper into what's kind of

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really going on because so I'm looking

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for shows that you've done a topic that

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we've covered now you have to go very

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far just a couple months ago skeptoid

274
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podcast 577 you did on precognition and

275
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psychic abilities do you remember that

276
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one is just a couple months ago

277
00:12:36,550 --> 00:12:34,790
sure so you want to run down the basics

278
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of what you were trying to kind of cover

279
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there so what I did was I went out to

280
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I've got a big gmail list of listeners

281
00:12:47,470 --> 00:12:45,350
who have volunteered to help with

282
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research sometimes and an sometimes I'll

283
00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:49,340
throw some questions out to them and and

284
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I asked them hey have you had any kind

285
00:12:57,510 --> 00:12:54,910
of a strange experience that you can't

286
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that you can't explain

287
00:13:01,750 --> 00:12:59,870
record it on your little voice memo

288
00:13:05,770 --> 00:13:01,760
feature on your phone and email it to me

289
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:05,780
and I don't know we probably got 40 or

290
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50 and interestingly the by far the

291
00:13:19,750 --> 00:13:14,720
largest group of them was people who saw

292
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a single point of light UFO and I did an

293
00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:21,740
episode where I played all of those

294
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together and the second largest group

295
00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:27,560
was people who had explained or

296
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expressed some story about a

297
00:13:34,060 --> 00:13:31,640
precognition type of events that

298
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happened to them either they were

299
00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:35,270
thinking about something and then it

300
00:13:39,070 --> 00:13:37,610
happened or you know that kind of thing

301
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:39,080
they wake up in the middle of the night

302
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:40,370
and they find their aunt died or

303
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:41,810
something after dreaming about the aunt

304
00:13:46,330 --> 00:13:44,330
that kind of thing and so I did an

305
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:46,340
episode where I compiled I don't know

306
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:48,170
four or five of those that were that

307
00:13:52,230 --> 00:13:50,090
we're all similar similar enough that we

308
00:13:54,430 --> 00:13:52,240
could talk about them as a group and

309
00:13:57,700 --> 00:13:54,440
talked about one potential explanation

310
00:13:59,410 --> 00:13:57,710
for all of them so great you know and

311
00:14:00,790 --> 00:13:59,420
the reason it caught my eye is we've

312
00:14:02,290 --> 00:14:00,800
done a bunch of shows on that as well

313
00:14:04,510 --> 00:14:02,300
but there's a lot of research that's

314
00:14:06,010 --> 00:14:04,520
been done on precognition and in

315
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:06,020
particular it's been kind of a hot

316
00:14:11,170 --> 00:14:09,370
research topic because the

317
00:14:13,510 --> 00:14:11,180
parapsychologists the professional

318
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:13,520
scientists who studied this kind of made

319
00:14:19,210 --> 00:14:17,210
a lot of noise I mean Daryl BEM from

320
00:14:19,650 --> 00:14:19,220
Cornell University published his study a

321
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:19,660
few

322
00:14:24,690 --> 00:14:22,330
ago and he actually made the circuit of

323
00:14:26,370 --> 00:14:24,700
the TV shows he did the Corbett report

324
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:26,380
you know which is unheard of for these

325
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:28,210
pair of psychologists and then there was

326
00:14:33,210 --> 00:14:30,250
this contrast where Richard Wiseman the

327
00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:33,220
famous skeptical scientist came and said

328
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:36,130
no it's all bull I mean did you were you

329
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:37,810
aware of all the research that's been

330
00:14:44,340 --> 00:14:41,290
done on precognition is it's not an

331
00:14:47,220 --> 00:14:44,350
episode that I had research for some

332
00:14:48,990 --> 00:14:47,230
time this particular episode that I did

333
00:14:50,910 --> 00:14:49,000
we was just talking about these

334
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:50,920
particular stories that were sent in so

335
00:14:57,060 --> 00:14:55,690
I didn't include other stuff but to give

336
00:14:58,230 --> 00:14:57,070
him a more general answer your question

337
00:15:01,800 --> 00:14:58,240
is that's something I'm generally aware

338
00:15:05,850 --> 00:15:01,810
of or keep up with and not as much as

339
00:15:07,710 --> 00:15:05,860
I'd like because I'm just so over

340
00:15:09,300 --> 00:15:07,720
committed with my time on working on

341
00:15:11,910 --> 00:15:09,310
whatever episode I'm working on I don't

342
00:15:15,930 --> 00:15:11,920
really get as much time to keep up with

343
00:15:17,430 --> 00:15:15,940
with fun topics as I wish I did but you

344
00:15:21,660 --> 00:15:17,440
did a show on the science of

345
00:15:24,450 --> 00:15:21,670
precognition this this is 577 episode

346
00:15:26,460 --> 00:15:24,460
you're talking about yeah well it wasn't

347
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:26,470
the science of precognition in general

348
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:29,290
it was about these particular stories

349
00:15:34,530 --> 00:15:31,450
that were sent in by listeners and what

350
00:15:36,900 --> 00:15:34,540
might have been the case for these kind

351
00:15:39,060 --> 00:15:36,910
of but I mean yeah let me drill into

352
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:39,070
this a little bit more you start all

353
00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:42,250
that episode by saying this first it's

354
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:44,320
important to lay the groundwork for the

355
00:15:50,730 --> 00:15:46,930
conventional science-based explanation

356
00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:50,740
for apparent episodes of precognition it

357
00:15:56,940 --> 00:15:53,650
comes from the law of large numbers I

358
00:15:59,010 --> 00:15:56,950
mean Ryan no it doesn't I mean people

359
00:16:01,050 --> 00:15:59,020
have studied precognition for the

360
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:01,060
longest time because it's something that

361
00:16:07,190 --> 00:16:04,570
has been widely reported across cultures

362
00:16:09,420 --> 00:16:07,200
throughout time these people have these

363
00:16:11,820 --> 00:16:09,430
experiences of feeling like they know

364
00:16:12,870 --> 00:16:11,830
the future or like you said dreams so

365
00:16:15,090 --> 00:16:12,880
they've studied this and they've

366
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:15,100
actually studied in the lab it's not

367
00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:16,930
that hard to study you know most the

368
00:16:23,490 --> 00:16:20,050
research that's done on precognition is

369
00:16:25,500 --> 00:16:23,500
based on an old freshman psychology

370
00:16:28,140 --> 00:16:25,510
experiment that's been going on for the

371
00:16:31,140 --> 00:16:28,150
longest time or you sit a student down

372
00:16:32,950 --> 00:16:31,150
and you say okay image is going to pop

373
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:32,960
up on your computer and it's

374
00:16:39,610 --> 00:16:36,770
either be bunnies and kittens or it's

375
00:16:42,550 --> 00:16:39,620
going to be something really horrific or

376
00:16:45,730 --> 00:16:42,560
something really sexy and let's see how

377
00:16:48,130 --> 00:16:45,740
you respond and so that work they did

378
00:16:49,300 --> 00:16:48,140
without even being interested in

379
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:49,310
precognition

380
00:16:54,700 --> 00:16:51,490
but being interested in the

381
00:16:58,090 --> 00:16:54,710
physiological responses we have towards

382
00:17:00,460 --> 00:16:58,100
images and then a guy named dr. Dean

383
00:17:02,590 --> 00:17:00,470
Radin said hey I wonder if I could use

384
00:17:04,900 --> 00:17:02,600
that same experiment because we have

385
00:17:07,030 --> 00:17:04,910
such good data on it and turned it into

386
00:17:10,090 --> 00:17:07,040
a precognition experiment and see if

387
00:17:12,220 --> 00:17:10,100
people react before the images are

388
00:17:13,780 --> 00:17:12,230
actually shown and technically that

389
00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:13,790
isn't even precognition

390
00:17:20,530 --> 00:17:16,850
that's presentiment work but that

391
00:17:23,050 --> 00:17:20,540
experiments been replicated Oh 2030

392
00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:23,060
times by labs all over the world and

393
00:17:28,270 --> 00:17:25,490
then this latest round the last couple

394
00:17:31,180 --> 00:17:28,280
years were Wiseman really just totally

395
00:17:34,420 --> 00:17:31,190
flubbed that one with Daryl BEM from

396
00:17:36,790 --> 00:17:34,430
Cornell and then Julia Mossberg from

397
00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:36,800
Northwestern is they kind of did a twist

398
00:17:42,330 --> 00:17:39,770
on it where is it really presentiment in

399
00:17:44,890 --> 00:17:42,340
terms of measuring biological things but

400
00:17:46,570 --> 00:17:44,900
precognition saying if people really did

401
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:46,580
know what was going to happen next

402
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:49,010
so the reason I go into all this depth

403
00:17:54,100 --> 00:17:52,490
is this is the complaint that so many of

404
00:17:59,530 --> 00:17:54,110
us have with the skeptical community

405
00:18:01,150 --> 00:17:59,540
it's just incredibly science light ultra

406
00:18:03,670 --> 00:18:01,160
light to the point where it isn't even

407
00:18:05,770 --> 00:18:03,680
science I mean this is the research on

408
00:18:09,610 --> 00:18:05,780
precognition this is the only thing to

409
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:09,620
talk about not some hokey thing of the

410
00:18:15,490 --> 00:18:13,730
law of large numbers or something well

411
00:18:18,370 --> 00:18:15,500
obviously you're not telling anything I

412
00:18:22,060 --> 00:18:18,380
don't know but you can look at any any

413
00:18:25,060 --> 00:18:22,070
out there field Bigfoot alien visitation

414
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:25,070
Flat Earth and you can say exactly the

415
00:18:28,870 --> 00:18:26,330
same thing that you just said about

416
00:18:31,210 --> 00:18:28,880
precognition there are lots of people

417
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:31,220
studying it is being replicated in labs

418
00:18:35,350 --> 00:18:33,650
all around the world where where it

419
00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:35,360
becomes something that I would report on

420
00:18:40,420 --> 00:18:38,090
my show is when it passes scrutiny and

421
00:18:42,820 --> 00:18:40,430
gets into the major scientific journals

422
00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:42,830
and is accepted by the community at

423
00:18:46,790 --> 00:18:44,960
large at that point it becomes an

424
00:18:49,580 --> 00:18:46,800
accepted science that I would report on

425
00:18:52,460 --> 00:18:49,590
my show but Brian this did I mean that

426
00:18:55,190 --> 00:18:52,470
was why it made such news is dr. Daryl

427
00:18:58,760 --> 00:18:55,200
BEM highly highly regarded in the social

428
00:19:01,970 --> 00:18:58,770
sciences did get this published in a

429
00:19:04,250 --> 00:19:01,980
major journal in his field and that's

430
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:04,260
why he made the rounds on the corporate

431
00:19:08,330 --> 00:19:05,970
report and the New York Times and all

432
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:08,340
the rest of it and that's why your buddy

433
00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:10,610
you're skeptical buddy Richard Wiseman

434
00:19:18,290 --> 00:19:13,710
went to such great lengths to try and

435
00:19:20,330 --> 00:19:18,300
debunk that experiment and you know I

436
00:19:23,090 --> 00:19:20,340
mean we can get into all that detail but

437
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:23,100
that detail is what's really really

438
00:19:29,660 --> 00:19:26,930
important that's where science happens

439
00:19:32,390 --> 00:19:29,670
yeah well I mean III hear this all the

440
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:32,400
time from from people who email me about

441
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:34,770
whatever they're their pet special thing

442
00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:36,690
is and you know why don't I report it

443
00:19:40,010 --> 00:19:38,130
because of all of this and all of this

444
00:19:43,370 --> 00:19:40,020
and it's so legitimate and so many

445
00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:43,380
people have have replicated it you know

446
00:19:47,060 --> 00:19:44,910
I've got to draw the line somewhere and

447
00:19:49,220 --> 00:19:47,070
where I draw the line is when something

448
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:49,230
becomes broadly accepted by the science

449
00:19:54,380 --> 00:19:51,930
community but you do in the powers I

450
00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:54,390
will take pleasure in reporting this

451
00:19:58,910 --> 00:19:56,490
guy's work I'm not familiar with him I

452
00:20:00,800 --> 00:19:58,920
don't know what the paper was but that's

453
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:00,810
that's basically where I draw the line I

454
00:20:05,210 --> 00:20:02,490
get that in one sense and I won't

455
00:20:07,580 --> 00:20:05,220
persist doing it further but I mean the

456
00:20:09,860 --> 00:20:07,590
point is you did report on it you did a

457
00:20:13,370 --> 00:20:09,870
show on precognition you just got it

458
00:20:15,110 --> 00:20:13,380
wrong what I reported on was what is the

459
00:20:17,780 --> 00:20:15,120
currently scientific accepted

460
00:20:19,940 --> 00:20:17,790
explanation for precognition reports

461
00:20:22,340 --> 00:20:19,950
what you're describing is that there's

462
00:20:25,910 --> 00:20:22,350
actually some extra sensory perception

463
00:20:28,390 --> 00:20:25,920
ability is not yet the science the

464
00:20:30,410 --> 00:20:28,400
mainstream consensus on how that works

465
00:20:32,090 --> 00:20:30,420
but you understand the same thing when

466
00:20:34,460 --> 00:20:32,100
it becomes so I will take pleasure in

467
00:20:36,890 --> 00:20:34,470
doing an updated episode right but you

468
00:20:39,620 --> 00:20:36,900
reported on the conventional

469
00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:39,630
science-based explanation these are your

470
00:20:44,860 --> 00:20:43,710
words for precognition is the law of

471
00:20:47,270 --> 00:20:44,870
large numbers

472
00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:47,280
there is notes that is what my show was

473
00:20:52,340 --> 00:20:50,130
about was the accepted science

474
00:20:54,350 --> 00:20:52,350
explanation for phenomena that would

475
00:20:56,140 --> 00:20:54,360
have nothing to do with the precognition

476
00:20:59,840 --> 00:20:56,150
experiment that I just talked about that

477
00:21:00,729 --> 00:20:59,850
cannot be the law the law of large

478
00:21:05,029 --> 00:21:00,739
numbers

479
00:21:06,589 --> 00:21:05,039
cannot in any way explain that

480
00:21:07,190 --> 00:21:06,599
experiment right because there aren't

481
00:21:08,690 --> 00:21:07,200
any law

482
00:21:11,419 --> 00:21:08,700
there aren't any large numbers in that

483
00:21:14,149 --> 00:21:11,429
case it's if it's presentiment it's the

484
00:21:15,049 --> 00:21:14,159
physiological response if it's the

485
00:21:17,509 --> 00:21:15,059
precognition

486
00:21:19,310 --> 00:21:17,519
it's the guessing before the answer is

487
00:21:21,649 --> 00:21:19,320
known kind of thing there's no law of

488
00:21:23,599 --> 00:21:21,659
large numbers there yeah well like I say

489
00:21:25,639 --> 00:21:23,609
I have not read that report and nor

490
00:21:27,019 --> 00:21:25,649
would I if it's something from a from a

491
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:27,029
friends journal or if it's something

492
00:21:33,109 --> 00:21:29,690
that wasn't replicated or that received

493
00:21:34,940 --> 00:21:33,119
criticism in in the next issue of the

494
00:21:37,129 --> 00:21:34,950
journal you know whatever it is I try to

495
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:37,139
be I tried to set a pretty high bar for

496
00:21:42,229 --> 00:21:41,129
what I report okay let's move on I tell

497
00:21:46,909 --> 00:21:42,239
you what the other thing I want to talk

498
00:21:48,979 --> 00:21:46,919
about is the skeptical community thing

499
00:21:51,649 --> 00:21:48,989
that you mentioned earlier because it

500
00:21:53,930 --> 00:21:51,659
seems to me and a lot other people I

501
00:21:57,619 --> 00:21:53,940
talked to that you know the skeptical

502
00:22:00,019 --> 00:21:57,629
thing is kind of over I mean the Jay

503
00:22:03,469 --> 00:22:00,029
raff James Randi foundation thing is

504
00:22:06,830 --> 00:22:03,479
over the amazing meeting thing is over

505
00:22:07,849 --> 00:22:06,840
and over in kind of a pretty dramatic

506
00:22:09,619 --> 00:22:07,859
way

507
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:09,629
at least that's what I thought and then

508
00:22:14,629 --> 00:22:12,210
I read you know again I was researching

509
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:14,639
for this show so I referenced your thing

510
00:22:21,499 --> 00:22:18,450
a year ago you wrote the demise of Tam

511
00:22:23,269 --> 00:22:21,509
Matt is the amazing meeting this annual

512
00:22:25,460 --> 00:22:23,279
conference that James Randi had we're

513
00:22:28,430 --> 00:22:25,470
all skeptics were invited to kind of get

514
00:22:30,830 --> 00:22:28,440
together and the j r-- f j Morandi

515
00:22:33,529 --> 00:22:30,840
educational foundation which never

516
00:22:35,859 --> 00:22:33,539
really did much education as we've now

517
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:35,869
come to find out as the financial

518
00:22:41,779 --> 00:22:39,330
reports have been issued but you're

519
00:22:44,570 --> 00:22:41,789
saying that the demise of that I'll

520
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:44,580
quote you happen for exactly the right

521
00:22:51,169 --> 00:22:48,330
reason and no other our friend James

522
00:22:55,489 --> 00:22:51,179
Randi considered a mentor by many of us

523
00:22:58,549 --> 00:22:55,499
has simply retired I mean yeah Brian

524
00:23:00,710 --> 00:22:58,559
there's that's just not accurate there's

525
00:23:02,930 --> 00:23:00,720
no mention that their revenues were

526
00:23:06,019 --> 00:23:02,940
declining that they had to fire all the

527
00:23:08,479 --> 00:23:06,029
staff there's no mention of the sexual

528
00:23:11,539 --> 00:23:08,489
harassment scandal that just tore the

529
00:23:13,519 --> 00:23:11,549
whole community apart there's no mention

530
00:23:14,340 --> 00:23:13,529
of Randy's other legal problems I mean

531
00:23:17,610 --> 00:23:14,350
you

532
00:23:23,310 --> 00:23:17,620
that really accurate to say hey he just

533
00:23:25,140 --> 00:23:23,320
retired yeah in my in my opinion yes he

534
00:23:28,409 --> 00:23:25,150
mean the guys I don't know how old he is

535
00:23:30,299 --> 00:23:28,419
you know 80 90 something yeah he's he's

536
00:23:32,430 --> 00:23:30,309
quite old he's quite feeble he's a good

537
00:23:35,130 --> 00:23:32,440
friend of mine I keep him in touch with

538
00:23:37,260 --> 00:23:35,140
them he there's no way he is up to

539
00:23:38,669 --> 00:23:37,270
attending a conference right now

540
00:23:40,370 --> 00:23:38,679
you know he'll do he'll do limited

541
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:40,380
appearances and things like that but

542
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:42,970
he's quite old and quite feeble he

543
00:23:48,270 --> 00:23:46,450
requires care running running the jrf

544
00:23:50,659 --> 00:23:48,280
was simply out of his hands and I think

545
00:23:52,740 --> 00:23:50,669
it was the right time to to step back

546
00:23:55,890 --> 00:23:52,750
everyone sad I mean everyone really

547
00:23:57,960 --> 00:23:55,900
enjoyed Tam it was a great a great place

548
00:24:00,330 --> 00:23:57,970
where I enjoyed going every year to see

549
00:24:02,399 --> 00:24:00,340
many friends and I'd see once a year I

550
00:24:06,180 --> 00:24:02,409
know a lot of people who felt the same

551
00:24:08,070 --> 00:24:06,190
way it was a lot of fun I'm definitely

552
00:24:10,140 --> 00:24:08,080
sad that it's over with I mean maybe you

553
00:24:13,110 --> 00:24:10,150
want to consider me a a hostile witness

554
00:24:15,419 --> 00:24:13,120
or a biased in that case but I certainly

555
00:24:18,870 --> 00:24:15,429
am biased because I really enjoyed the

556
00:24:23,490 --> 00:24:18,880
conference I really enjoy him as a

557
00:24:25,620 --> 00:24:23,500
friend and as a mentor as a mentor I

558
00:24:26,850 --> 00:24:25,630
understand the friend part and I

559
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:26,860
understand them too you enjoyed the

560
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:28,690
conference my point was just the

561
00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:30,970
sceptical thing is just kind of over I

562
00:24:36,299 --> 00:24:33,130
mean skeptics you know for whatever

563
00:24:39,210 --> 00:24:36,309
reason don't have quite the same status

564
00:24:41,010 --> 00:24:39,220
there isn't quite the same umph to the

565
00:24:44,430 --> 00:24:41,020
whole thing that there used to be and

566
00:24:46,289 --> 00:24:44,440
part of that is surely you know that jrf

567
00:24:48,090 --> 00:24:46,299
isn't around and tam isn't around but I

568
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:48,100
want to go back because I'm still stuck

569
00:24:54,470 --> 00:24:50,650
on this idea that you consider him a

570
00:24:57,060 --> 00:24:54,480
mentor I mean this guy was caught lying

571
00:24:59,520 --> 00:24:57,070
over and over he lied about you're a

572
00:25:01,350 --> 00:24:59,530
Geller he lied about Rupert Sheldrake he

573
00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:01,360
lied to dozens of people about the

574
00:25:05,010 --> 00:25:03,130
million dollar channel a challenge and

575
00:25:06,450 --> 00:25:05,020
that was find out he even you know the

576
00:25:10,250 --> 00:25:06,460
whole thing he lied about his background

577
00:25:12,750 --> 00:25:10,260
he claimed he was like this genius IQ of

578
00:25:14,399 --> 00:25:12,760
186 and he didn't have to go to school

579
00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:14,409
he had this special I mean his whole

580
00:25:20,399 --> 00:25:18,640
story was just one lie after another and

581
00:25:23,700 --> 00:25:20,409
this guy you really consider him a

582
00:25:26,030 --> 00:25:23,710
mentor in what way was he a mentor or

583
00:25:28,049 --> 00:25:26,040
someone who you would kind of look up to

584
00:25:28,259 --> 00:25:28,059
well first of all I want to say I don't

585
00:25:30,899 --> 00:25:28,269
know

586
00:25:32,639 --> 00:25:30,909
anything about any of those charges you

587
00:25:35,339 --> 00:25:32,649
just threw at him

588
00:25:37,949 --> 00:25:35,349
and I don't judge my friends based on

589
00:25:40,619 --> 00:25:37,959
what other people say about them so I

590
00:25:42,329 --> 00:25:40,629
mean you can google it I mean I'll pause

591
00:25:46,169 --> 00:25:42,339
right now you can google all that stuff

592
00:25:47,519 --> 00:25:46,179
he claimed that not I mean any one of

593
00:25:50,519 --> 00:25:47,529
those but that's fine if you don't want

594
00:25:52,109 --> 00:25:50,529
to get into it that's okay too but how

595
00:25:52,739 --> 00:25:52,119
do I consider him a mentor I really

596
00:25:55,709 --> 00:25:52,749
didn't I

597
00:25:57,599 --> 00:25:55,719
I remember being my first exposure to

598
00:26:00,899 --> 00:25:57,609
him like like most people was seeing him

599
00:26:02,489 --> 00:26:00,909
on The Tonight Show when when Carson

600
00:26:07,709 --> 00:26:02,499
would happen and Carson of course was a

601
00:26:09,779 --> 00:26:07,719
major donor to the to the Jay ref but

602
00:26:12,899 --> 00:26:09,789
when he would have people come on and

603
00:26:15,779 --> 00:26:12,909
you know as a boy I always heard about

604
00:26:17,909 --> 00:26:15,789
you know paranormal things and these ESP

605
00:26:19,469 --> 00:26:17,919
and telekinesis and all these great

606
00:26:20,819 --> 00:26:19,479
abilities and talk wow that's the

607
00:26:23,519 --> 00:26:20,829
coolest thing ever you know can that

608
00:26:26,729 --> 00:26:23,529
actually be real and then when I saw it

609
00:26:28,589 --> 00:26:26,739
actually being tested and you know I

610
00:26:30,239 --> 00:26:28,599
don't want to say controlled conditions

611
00:26:32,639 --> 00:26:30,249
because you're very limited in what you

612
00:26:34,409 --> 00:26:32,649
can do on The Tonight Show but when I

613
00:26:36,539 --> 00:26:34,419
saw it being tested and failed and

614
00:26:38,549 --> 00:26:36,549
hearing it explained why that like that

615
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:38,559
was so i opening for me it's like whoa

616
00:26:44,399 --> 00:26:42,129
so there's you know it's not necessarily

617
00:26:45,899 --> 00:26:44,409
a fact that this guy is able to move

618
00:26:48,690 --> 00:26:45,909
things with his mind that there's other

619
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:48,700
explanations for it for me that was a

620
00:26:53,849 --> 00:26:51,369
wonderful learning experience and it

621
00:26:56,930 --> 00:26:53,859
really opened up new horizons for me and

622
00:27:00,829 --> 00:26:56,940
I became fascinated with the idea of

623
00:27:03,629 --> 00:27:00,839
digging past the popular portrayal of

624
00:27:05,519 --> 00:27:03,639
strange phenomena digging into them and

625
00:27:08,519 --> 00:27:05,529
finding out what's really going on that

626
00:27:10,049 --> 00:27:08,529
that fascinated me he introduced me to

627
00:27:12,749 --> 00:27:10,059
the concept that that was even a thing

628
00:27:16,169 --> 00:27:12,759
you could do and I would say that's the

629
00:27:18,690 --> 00:27:16,179
reason I consider him a mentor I get

630
00:27:22,469 --> 00:27:18,700
part of that you know I can't get past

631
00:27:23,759 --> 00:27:22,479
the kind of honest liar ethos that he

632
00:27:26,819 --> 00:27:23,769
was all about I mean they even did a

633
00:27:29,009 --> 00:27:26,829
movie documentary about James Randi the

634
00:27:32,489 --> 00:27:29,019
honest liar and that seems to be a

635
00:27:35,209 --> 00:27:32,499
pretty good catchphrase for where he was

636
00:27:38,399 --> 00:27:35,219
always at I mean he was always an end

637
00:27:40,709 --> 00:27:38,409
justifies the means if I have to trick

638
00:27:41,300 --> 00:27:40,719
or fool you I mean it's really the

639
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:41,310
intent

640
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:45,450
of science it's the exact opposite of

641
00:27:52,130 --> 00:27:49,290
what science aspires to do so when he's

642
00:27:55,370 --> 00:27:52,140
caught you know lying about uri geller

643
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:55,380
or lying about Rupert Sheldrake if he

644
00:28:01,940 --> 00:27:57,930
was truly in the science realm it would

645
00:28:04,490 --> 00:28:01,950
be game over you can't lie like that and

646
00:28:06,980 --> 00:28:04,500
and still have a following and still

647
00:28:09,940 --> 00:28:06,990
have a reputation I never understood why

648
00:28:13,370 --> 00:28:09,950
the skeptical community continued to

649
00:28:17,180 --> 00:28:13,380
embrace this guy when all these things

650
00:28:18,710 --> 00:28:17,190
were kind of revealed I'm not familiar

651
00:28:20,180 --> 00:28:18,720
with anything like that having been

652
00:28:24,140 --> 00:28:20,190
revealed so I really can't answer your

653
00:28:25,970 --> 00:28:24,150
question it's so easy man if you just

654
00:28:29,990 --> 00:28:25,980
google the whole thing with Rupert

655
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:30,000
Sheldrake was way out in the open well

656
00:28:33,710 --> 00:28:31,890
I'm not familiar with it I'm happy to

657
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:33,720
try and talk about it if you want to but

658
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:37,050
I mean don't tell me what what what it

659
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:38,850
is that happened with Rupert Sheldrake

660
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:42,450
and I I've never met Rupert Sheldrake I

661
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:45,330
know vaguely something about him but I'm

662
00:28:51,950 --> 00:28:48,050
happy to give my opinion if you want

663
00:28:54,770 --> 00:28:51,960
well one the fact that you don't know is

664
00:28:57,590 --> 00:28:54,780
I think telling but Rupert Sheldrake did

665
00:29:00,140 --> 00:28:57,600
this experiment with dogs that appear to

666
00:29:03,980 --> 00:29:00,150
have some kind of psychic connection

667
00:29:06,110 --> 00:29:03,990
with their owners that they know when

668
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:06,120
their owners are coming home so that's

669
00:29:11,750 --> 00:29:08,610
all I know about him right so Randi

670
00:29:14,630 --> 00:29:11,760
claims hey we tested all this we tested

671
00:29:17,270 --> 00:29:14,640
all this and we have all the data and

672
00:29:20,030 --> 00:29:17,280
the data shows that it isn't true

673
00:29:21,860 --> 00:29:20,040
so Sheldrick and if you know shell trick

674
00:29:24,290 --> 00:29:21,870
and I've interviewed him several times

675
00:29:27,260 --> 00:29:24,300
in the show many times and talk to him I

676
00:29:29,540 --> 00:29:27,270
mean he's a cambridge biologist and he's

677
00:29:32,300 --> 00:29:29,550
soft-spoken kind of british guy but he

678
00:29:35,090 --> 00:29:32,310
doesn't tolerate this kind of [\h__\h]

679
00:29:37,100 --> 00:29:35,100
very easily so we just persisted and he

680
00:29:40,370 --> 00:29:37,110
just stayed on Randy and Randy had to

681
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:40,380
eventually admit that no he hadn't

682
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:42,450
really done the tests and he created all

683
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:44,250
these lies in the interim he actually

684
00:29:48,980 --> 00:29:46,170
said that the data was lost in a

685
00:29:51,620 --> 00:29:48,990
hurricane and there was a flood all

686
00:29:54,430 --> 00:29:51,630
these just outrageous lies until he

687
00:29:56,980 --> 00:29:54,440
eventually admitted okay I don't have

688
00:30:00,580 --> 00:29:56,990
any data on it and I'm sorry Sheldrick I

689
00:30:02,529 --> 00:30:00,590
have to retract he said that privately

690
00:30:04,539 --> 00:30:02,539
and publicly he kind of took this middle

691
00:30:06,789 --> 00:30:04,549
position but the same thing happened

692
00:30:08,830 --> 00:30:06,799
with uri geller where he said that the

693
00:30:11,259 --> 00:30:08,840
you know uri geller was tested

694
00:30:13,899 --> 00:30:11,269
extensively at Stanford Research

695
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:13,909
Institute by some very very competent

696
00:30:19,119 --> 00:30:17,090
researchers he'll put off in Russell

697
00:30:20,499 --> 00:30:19,129
Targ you can still watch the video out

698
00:30:21,850 --> 00:30:20,509
on YouTube but what they did I mean

699
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:21,860
these guys know what they're doing and

700
00:30:27,820 --> 00:30:25,850
they were able to validate that Uri

701
00:30:31,749 --> 00:30:27,830
Geller was able to perform these things

702
00:30:33,460 --> 00:30:31,759
in a lab and then Randi just lied he

703
00:30:36,759 --> 00:30:33,470
just lied he said that the guy who

704
00:30:38,919 --> 00:30:36,769
videotaped those experiments was was

705
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:38,929
faking him and the guy came out and said

706
00:30:43,330 --> 00:30:41,570
that's completely ridiculous I'll go to

707
00:30:45,249 --> 00:30:43,340
court I'll sign an affidavit I'll do

708
00:30:45,639 --> 00:30:45,259
anything you want it's completely

709
00:30:48,789 --> 00:30:45,649
made-up

710
00:30:50,740 --> 00:30:48,799
and again you know Randy had it back off

711
00:30:54,789 --> 00:30:50,750
of that one again these are kind of

712
00:30:56,350 --> 00:30:54,799
things that would completely if the guy

713
00:30:58,810 --> 00:30:56,360
was a real scientist anything

714
00:31:00,789 --> 00:30:58,820
approaching a scientist he would be

715
00:31:03,340 --> 00:31:00,799
completely ostracized from the

716
00:31:07,509 --> 00:31:03,350
scientific community and yet he's still

717
00:31:10,749 --> 00:31:07,519
kind of held in high regard by a bunch

718
00:31:12,940 --> 00:31:10,759
of skeptics well he doesn't claim to be

719
00:31:15,220 --> 00:31:12,950
a scientist as far as I know he's a he's

720
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:15,230
a magician but you're a science writer

721
00:31:21,100 --> 00:31:18,490
and you say he's a mentor of yours I

722
00:31:23,110 --> 00:31:21,110
mean so is Benjamin Franklin but I've

723
00:31:24,580 --> 00:31:23,120
never flown a kite in a lightning storm

724
00:31:26,049 --> 00:31:24,590
either I mean there's a lot of people I

725
00:31:28,389 --> 00:31:26,059
respect and that I've learned from I

726
00:31:30,940 --> 00:31:28,399
don't have to be claimed to be in their

727
00:31:33,159 --> 00:31:30,950
same professional feel you know III

728
00:31:37,419 --> 00:31:33,169
don't I've never heard anything about

729
00:31:39,730 --> 00:31:37,429
about Randy issuing big retractions and

730
00:31:42,369 --> 00:31:39,740
apologizing for having lied about people

731
00:31:43,419 --> 00:31:42,379
I've never heard that also I'm hearing

732
00:31:45,310 --> 00:31:43,429
it now from someone who obviously

733
00:31:47,619 --> 00:31:45,320
doesn't like him or respect him very

734
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:47,629
much so I mean if you'll forgive me I'll

735
00:31:51,700 --> 00:31:49,370
take it with a grain of salt that you're

736
00:31:53,259 --> 00:31:51,710
that what you're reporting is a literal

737
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:53,269
true account of what he actually said

738
00:31:57,220 --> 00:31:55,970
and you know maybe we should move on

739
00:31:58,720 --> 00:31:57,230
because like I said I'm not familiar

740
00:32:00,999 --> 00:31:58,730
with these situations I'm not the guy to

741
00:32:03,759 --> 00:32:01,009
talk about them with it takes about five

742
00:32:07,769 --> 00:32:03,769
minutes to Google that anyone can find

743
00:32:09,690 --> 00:32:07,779
it so yeah I'm not I'm not I do all

744
00:32:11,249 --> 00:32:09,700
my research based on substantially more

745
00:32:12,959 --> 00:32:11,259
than five minutes of googling that

746
00:32:14,279 --> 00:32:12,969
doesn't that's not enough to persuade me

747
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:14,289
of just about anything

748
00:32:17,820 --> 00:32:16,330
well take as much time as take as much

749
00:32:20,999 --> 00:32:17,830
time as you want the fact that you don't

750
00:32:22,639 --> 00:32:21,009
know it is surprising surprising to me

751
00:32:24,930 --> 00:32:22,649
but that's that's okay I mean obviously

752
00:32:26,729 --> 00:32:24,940
obviously we've we've all heard the the

753
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:26,739
uri geller stories though I mean he what

754
00:32:30,690 --> 00:32:28,690
he doesn't even he didn't he no longer

755
00:32:33,180 --> 00:32:30,700
even claims that what he did was was

756
00:32:36,149 --> 00:32:33,190
real he now describes himself as a Mista

757
00:32:37,979 --> 00:32:36,159
fire and I think his the criticism

758
00:32:39,659 --> 00:32:37,989
against him for you know not returning

759
00:32:43,159 --> 00:32:39,669
all the research money that was spent on

760
00:32:45,359 --> 00:32:43,169
him is is well justified I mean he was

761
00:32:47,369 --> 00:32:45,369
he can't argue that he was not a

762
00:32:50,459 --> 00:32:47,379
professional con man for for his whole

763
00:32:52,950 --> 00:32:50,469
career because he said that his you know

764
00:32:56,159 --> 00:32:52,960
the basic the four basic tricks that he

765
00:32:58,229 --> 00:32:56,169
does that anyone can replicate he always

766
00:33:00,029 --> 00:32:58,239
claimed that those were actual magical

767
00:33:02,070 --> 00:33:00,039
abilities and and I don't think that

768
00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:02,080
ever fooled any professional magician

769
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:04,960
and I know a lot of people were kind of

770
00:33:08,999 --> 00:33:07,330
miffed that that he did go out into the

771
00:33:11,339 --> 00:33:09,009
world and tell people that it was real

772
00:33:14,459 --> 00:33:11,349
abilities and he took research money

773
00:33:16,589 --> 00:33:14,469
from people who were easily fooled and

774
00:33:19,919 --> 00:33:16,599
so are you referring to that he took

775
00:33:22,259 --> 00:33:19,929
research money from though the Stanford

776
00:33:25,019 --> 00:33:22,269
incident that you were talking about but

777
00:33:27,570 --> 00:33:25,029
no he wasn't that wasn't a matter of

778
00:33:29,459 --> 00:33:27,580
easily fooled and he didn't easily fool

779
00:33:32,549 --> 00:33:29,469
them and their experiments still stand

780
00:33:35,820 --> 00:33:32,559
up and you you've misread that situation

781
00:33:38,070 --> 00:33:35,830
like I'm telling you that's one that the

782
00:33:40,619 --> 00:33:38,080
way it eventually plays out is Randi is

783
00:33:43,499 --> 00:33:40,629
found to be the liar not Targ and

784
00:33:45,899 --> 00:33:43,509
Puthoff who have a stellar academic

785
00:33:48,419 --> 00:33:45,909
career in these experiments they set up

786
00:33:50,430 --> 00:33:48,429
which again anyone can watch the videos

787
00:33:54,029 --> 00:33:50,440
are still up there from Stanford

788
00:33:56,190 --> 00:33:54,039
Research Institute are rather easy to to

789
00:33:58,589 --> 00:33:56,200
kind of see and to replicate you know I

790
00:34:02,099 --> 00:33:58,599
just did an interview with dr. Jacques

791
00:34:04,289 --> 00:34:02,109
Boulet the famous UFO researcher known

792
00:34:09,510 --> 00:34:04,299
for that although he's a solid scientist

793
00:34:11,549 --> 00:34:09,520
and computer scientist of of quite quite

794
00:34:13,740 --> 00:34:11,559
amazing stature and himself but he you

795
00:34:16,559 --> 00:34:13,750
know he tells the story in the interview

796
00:34:17,099 --> 00:34:16,569
about sitting down at the table with uri

797
00:34:19,139 --> 00:34:17,109
geller

798
00:34:21,390 --> 00:34:19,149
at lunch when he was doing the

799
00:34:24,810 --> 00:34:21,400
experiments at stanford research

800
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:24,820
and just impromptu Geller said okay

801
00:34:29,790 --> 00:34:27,610
let's do this experiment and I mean

802
00:34:32,940 --> 00:34:29,800
anyone can go listen to it and again

803
00:34:35,940 --> 00:34:32,950
Jacques Vallee if anyone's read his work

804
00:34:39,420 --> 00:34:35,950
he's not a rube he's not someone who's

805
00:34:42,500 --> 00:34:39,430
gonna be easily fooled and you know he

806
00:34:45,240 --> 00:34:42,510
was he along with many many other

807
00:34:47,250 --> 00:34:45,250
credentialed scientists have validated

808
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:47,260
that uri geller was able to do these

809
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:49,570
things what what is this what what is

810
00:34:51,380 --> 00:34:50,770
his profession if you don't mind my

811
00:34:55,710 --> 00:34:51,390
asking

812
00:35:00,090 --> 00:34:55,720
Jacques Palais yeah well Jacques Allah

813
00:35:02,670 --> 00:35:00,100
is a scientist in in what field well I

814
00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:02,680
mean you can go look it I mean he has an

815
00:35:08,670 --> 00:35:06,730
extensive extensive history about me he

816
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:08,680
was a world-class computer scientist

817
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:11,410
venture ka is from our thing he was a

818
00:35:15,270 --> 00:35:13,210
capitalist in Silicon Valley for the

819
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:15,280
longest time also an entrepreneur for

820
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:19,450
the longest time he's not not look if I

821
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:21,010
could could I could I tell a quick story

822
00:35:25,380 --> 00:35:22,690
about an email exchange I had this

823
00:35:27,060 --> 00:35:25,390
morning of course that I think is

824
00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:27,070
relevant to this because you just you

825
00:35:33,300 --> 00:35:30,730
he's a computer scientist he's a venture

826
00:35:36,240 --> 00:35:33,310
capitalist none of those suggests that

827
00:35:39,660 --> 00:35:36,250
he's an expert in stage magic I got an

828
00:35:41,250 --> 00:35:39,670
email this morning from a guy about an

829
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:41,260
old episode I did on the skull

830
00:35:46,860 --> 00:35:44,410
experiment a way back long ago in the UK

831
00:35:50,820 --> 00:35:46,870
where the Society for psychical research

832
00:35:52,890 --> 00:35:50,830
hired some sounds performers to do a

833
00:35:55,530 --> 00:35:52,900
seance for them and they wrote it and

834
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:55,540
this happened over many times over a

835
00:35:59,340 --> 00:35:57,850
period of I think over even a year it's

836
00:36:01,440 --> 00:35:59,350
been a while but it was a fairly

837
00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:01,450
substantial series of more than Hughes

838
00:36:06,990 --> 00:36:03,730
announces yeah it was it was it was a it

839
00:36:09,870 --> 00:36:07,000
was a big project and they even invited

840
00:36:11,610 --> 00:36:09,880
people people with expertise in magic

841
00:36:13,890 --> 00:36:11,620
and stage magicians like Richard Wiseman

842
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:13,900
came in and and observed some of these

843
00:36:19,380 --> 00:36:18,010
and and this guy was the guy who emailed

844
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:19,390
me this morning said you know hey you

845
00:36:24,810 --> 00:36:22,330
know your conclusion didn't really

846
00:36:27,210 --> 00:36:24,820
represent the the conclusion of the

847
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:27,220
experts who were there and I said well

848
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:28,450
who were the experts who was there and

849
00:36:31,950 --> 00:36:29,890
he listed you know a handful of people

850
00:36:33,550 --> 00:36:31,960
who were expert one one was an

851
00:36:35,950 --> 00:36:33,560
electrical engineer one was a

852
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:35,960
physicist Rupert says Riveria Citterio

853
00:36:42,550 --> 00:36:38,210
son pardon me Rupert Sheldrake was there

854
00:36:45,340 --> 00:36:42,560
too okay and and and and he what was his

855
00:36:47,020 --> 00:36:45,350
he's as biologists you said right

856
00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:47,030
Cambridge biologist okay

857
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:49,730
so biology physicists electrical

858
00:36:54,100 --> 00:36:51,890
engineering none of these people you

859
00:36:57,730 --> 00:36:54,110
would have any reason to suspect they're

860
00:36:59,830 --> 00:36:57,740
experienced in stage seance performances

861
00:37:02,470 --> 00:36:59,840
those are completely irrelevant fields

862
00:37:04,540 --> 00:37:02,480
of expertise the few people who were

863
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:04,550
there who were familiar with seance

864
00:37:08,890 --> 00:37:06,650
performances basically came out laughing

865
00:37:10,930 --> 00:37:08,900
and saying these are still e tricks that

866
00:37:13,570 --> 00:37:10,940
have been familiar to seance performers

867
00:37:15,370 --> 00:37:13,580
for a hundred years so I had this email

868
00:37:17,470 --> 00:37:15,380
back and forth with this guy he was

869
00:37:19,540 --> 00:37:17,480
saying but this guy's a physicist he's

870
00:37:23,950 --> 00:37:19,550
going to know all about how magicians

871
00:37:26,830 --> 00:37:23,960
get out of illuminated handcuffs why

872
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:26,840
would he know that you experience

873
00:37:32,710 --> 00:37:29,690
matters you can you can complete an

874
00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:32,720
academic program in biology that doesn't

875
00:37:38,590 --> 00:37:34,730
mean you have years of experience with

876
00:37:41,470 --> 00:37:38,600
magical tricks those are totally totally

877
00:37:42,250 --> 00:37:41,480
different fields and one thing that we

878
00:37:45,970 --> 00:37:42,260
hear all the time

879
00:37:47,530 --> 00:37:45,980
is that scientists people with

880
00:37:49,090 --> 00:37:47,540
experience in some particular physical

881
00:37:52,330 --> 00:37:49,100
science some hard science

882
00:37:55,030 --> 00:37:52,340
are easily fooled by magicians now when

883
00:37:56,950 --> 00:37:55,040
you go to a man it's just not true if we

884
00:37:58,990 --> 00:37:56,960
hear it repeated by the skeptical

885
00:38:01,990 --> 00:37:59,000
community it's just never something

886
00:38:03,790 --> 00:38:02,000
that's been shown to be true in any kind

887
00:38:06,010 --> 00:38:03,800
of scientific way where someone's done

888
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:06,020
an experiment and tested a bunch of

889
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:07,970
scientists or applied any kind of

890
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:09,770
scientific reason to that so it's just

891
00:38:15,450 --> 00:38:12,170
one of those urban legends that you like

892
00:38:17,970 --> 00:38:15,460
to report on that is actually not true

893
00:38:21,190 --> 00:38:17,980
parapsychology is the most rigorous

894
00:38:24,100 --> 00:38:21,200
field of science that's not my opinion

895
00:38:25,660 --> 00:38:24,110
that's the the the conclusion that

896
00:38:27,820 --> 00:38:25,670
people have done that have studied it

897
00:38:30,220 --> 00:38:27,830
because there's been so much debunking

898
00:38:32,500 --> 00:38:30,230
and so much skepticism applied to it

899
00:38:34,950 --> 00:38:32,510
that they've had to adhere to the

900
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:34,960
highest level of double-blind studies

901
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:37,850
carefully control all that math may I

902
00:38:43,180 --> 00:38:41,090
ask you how many working scientists do

903
00:38:46,930 --> 00:38:43,190
you feel would agree with the statement

904
00:38:50,890 --> 00:38:46,940
that parapsychology is the most rigorous

905
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:50,900
science I'm telling you what the

906
00:38:55,210 --> 00:38:53,210
research first of all that's I me do you

907
00:38:58,390 --> 00:38:55,220
think that's really that's really what

908
00:39:00,730 --> 00:38:58,400
most scientists would agree with Brian

909
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:00,740
you obviously aren't familiar with that

910
00:39:05,620 --> 00:39:03,290
research but I can send you the research

911
00:39:07,150 --> 00:39:05,630
and see this is where I think you have a

912
00:39:09,430 --> 00:39:07,160
fundamental in a lot of ways

913
00:39:12,069 --> 00:39:09,440
misunderstanding of science you can't

914
00:39:14,740 --> 00:39:12,079
the whole purpose of science is to

915
00:39:17,559 --> 00:39:14,750
remove us from the kind of biases that

916
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:17,569
are loaded into that question good

917
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:20,690
science takes a question and tries to

918
00:39:25,599 --> 00:39:22,970
solve it the best way they can and then

919
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:25,609
presents the data so someone did that in

920
00:39:31,809 --> 00:39:29,530
this case they said is parapsychology

921
00:39:33,490 --> 00:39:31,819
scientifically rigorous well they said

922
00:39:36,730 --> 00:39:33,500
okay how would we measure that well

923
00:39:40,530 --> 00:39:36,740
double control we would say double-blind

924
00:39:43,150 --> 00:39:40,540
studies are you know are of the utmost

925
00:39:45,190 --> 00:39:43,160
importance in terms of measuring that

926
00:39:46,839 --> 00:39:45,200
they'd say replication is they'd say a

927
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:46,849
bunch of different factors and then

928
00:39:50,020 --> 00:39:48,170
they'd go out and look at it which is

929
00:39:52,030 --> 00:39:50,030
their methodology what they did so you

930
00:39:54,309 --> 00:39:52,040
can argue with the study they produce

931
00:39:56,260 --> 00:39:54,319
but you can't just switch over to this

932
00:39:58,809 --> 00:39:56,270
mode of just saying well what do you

933
00:40:01,059 --> 00:39:58,819
think Joe does that jive with your

934
00:40:04,150 --> 00:40:01,069
belief of how things work I mean it's

935
00:40:06,910 --> 00:40:04,160
not science you know I've got some

936
00:40:09,839 --> 00:40:06,920
friends who are who are biologists down

937
00:40:12,430 --> 00:40:09,849
at the Scripps Scripps Institute

938
00:40:15,150 --> 00:40:12,440
basically working on cancer cures

939
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:15,160
they're gonna spend their entire careers

940
00:40:20,470 --> 00:40:18,050
with one little aquarium that's got

941
00:40:22,809 --> 00:40:20,480
basically pond scum floating in it

942
00:40:25,630 --> 00:40:22,819
they're gonna spend their entire careers

943
00:40:28,150 --> 00:40:25,640
maybe 40 years going in there taking out

944
00:40:31,030 --> 00:40:28,160
one little sample putting it on petri

945
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:31,040
dishes incubating it testing its effect

946
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:34,970
on various pathogens looking for

947
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:36,530
something that can be developed into a

948
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:39,170
drug and they'll probably both finish

949
00:40:44,470 --> 00:40:41,210
their careers without ever making a

950
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:44,480
significant discovery and this is the

951
00:40:52,089 --> 00:40:48,650
reality of how science careers go it's a

952
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:52,099
lot of ridiculously hard work very

953
00:40:57,670 --> 00:40:56,450
little expectation of payoff and the

954
00:40:59,559 --> 00:40:57,680
reason we have to go through that is

955
00:41:00,430 --> 00:40:59,569
because once in a blue moon we do get

956
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:00,440
that payoff and

957
00:41:04,839 --> 00:41:02,930
is worth it every single working

958
00:41:06,849 --> 00:41:04,849
scientist I know would love nothing

959
00:41:10,720 --> 00:41:06,859
better than to make an earth-shaking

960
00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:10,730
discovery and what you're telling me is

961
00:41:14,740 --> 00:41:13,250
that earth-shaking discoveries are out

962
00:41:17,020 --> 00:41:14,750
there they're made all the time they're

963
00:41:21,220 --> 00:41:17,030
just not published or known for some

964
00:41:23,140 --> 00:41:21,230
reason and I can't I can't imagine a

965
00:41:25,150 --> 00:41:23,150
single working scientist I know who

966
00:41:27,970 --> 00:41:25,160
wouldn't who wouldn't change careers to

967
00:41:30,099 --> 00:41:27,980
jump all over that and get it replicated

968
00:41:31,750 --> 00:41:30,109
and get it published but when that

969
00:41:35,620 --> 00:41:31,760
habitat would I work for the mighty that

970
00:41:37,599 --> 00:41:35,630
I said pardon what are you referring to

971
00:41:40,690 --> 00:41:37,609
when you said that's what I said wooden

972
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:40,700
did I say that well the whole time we've

973
00:41:44,530 --> 00:41:42,050
had this conversation you've been

974
00:41:46,390 --> 00:41:44,540
telling me Oh things like precognition

975
00:41:49,569 --> 00:41:46,400
have been proven and published and are

976
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:49,579
well accepted by science that's just not

977
00:41:54,790 --> 00:41:51,650
the case because if it was it would make

978
00:41:57,910 --> 00:41:54,800
it into the journals and people would be

979
00:41:59,319 --> 00:41:57,920
changing careers to work on it I mean

980
00:42:01,180 --> 00:41:59,329
obviously you don't like richard wiseman

981
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:01,190
very much but i know him pretty well and

982
00:42:05,410 --> 00:42:02,690
I know he would he would change

983
00:42:07,750 --> 00:42:05,420
everything he would drop everything to

984
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:07,760
research full-time once it was proven

985
00:42:12,849 --> 00:42:10,490
that there was some sort of paranormal

986
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:12,859
ability I won't

987
00:42:16,300 --> 00:42:14,210
I won't bore you with the Richard

988
00:42:19,990 --> 00:42:16,310
Wiseman story on the precognition but

989
00:42:22,690 --> 00:42:20,000
it's the clearest example of the honest

990
00:42:24,339 --> 00:42:22,700
liar ethos that you could can't ever do

991
00:42:26,740 --> 00:42:24,349
maybe I'll include it in the show for

992
00:42:28,089 --> 00:42:26,750
the benefit of listeners but well what

993
00:42:30,010 --> 00:42:28,099
do these people get out of lying

994
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:30,020
why wouldn't they change careers and and

995
00:42:34,180 --> 00:42:32,810
and and and work on this why would they

996
00:42:36,790 --> 00:42:34,190
simply lie about it how does that

997
00:42:38,349 --> 00:42:36,800
benefit them I don't know I mean that

998
00:42:39,819 --> 00:42:38,359
gets it maybe you should question

999
00:42:42,010 --> 00:42:39,829
whether that's actually what's happening

1000
00:42:44,380 --> 00:42:42,020
well it doesn't make sense for someone

1001
00:42:46,210 --> 00:42:44,390
to do it then maybe they're not doing it

1002
00:42:49,690 --> 00:42:46,220
well when I said I don't know is really

1003
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:49,700
a kind of rhetorical answer because you

1004
00:42:54,700 --> 00:42:51,970
know it gets into the whole question of

1005
00:42:58,270 --> 00:42:54,710
people's motivations and trying to

1006
00:43:01,660 --> 00:42:58,280
understand that relative to controversy

1007
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:01,670
and as well as conspiracy which is you

1008
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:03,170
know we probably won't have time to get

1009
00:43:07,089 --> 00:43:04,490
into talking about today but it's

1010
00:43:08,980 --> 00:43:07,099
another topic you talk a lot about that

1011
00:43:12,430 --> 00:43:08,990
I think is kind of central to kind of

1012
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:12,440
trying to wrap our arms around this but

1013
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:14,210
you know what maybe what we are

1014
00:43:20,460 --> 00:43:17,810
in the time that we have is returned to

1015
00:43:24,220 --> 00:43:20,470
this movie because I really do think

1016
00:43:26,349 --> 00:43:24,230
people should check this out cuz unless

1017
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:26,359
you want to persist on that but go ahead

1018
00:43:30,300 --> 00:43:28,130
outlook should we talk more about the

1019
00:43:31,900 --> 00:43:30,310
movie or do you want to talk more about

1020
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:31,910
conspiracy or do you want to talk about

1021
00:43:35,020 --> 00:43:33,290
Richard Wiseman what would you like to

1022
00:43:36,820 --> 00:43:35,030
talk about there's actually a good segue

1023
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:36,830
from what we're talking about now into

1024
00:43:40,810 --> 00:43:39,290
the movie and that's one of the one of

1025
00:43:46,270 --> 00:43:40,820
the points that I make in in one of the

1026
00:43:48,670 --> 00:43:46,280
scenes of the movie is about how science

1027
00:43:51,670 --> 00:43:48,680
reporting the general public is usually

1028
00:43:54,550 --> 00:43:51,680
quite poor and the reason for that has

1029
00:43:57,070 --> 00:43:54,560
to do in many cases it has to do with

1030
00:44:00,760 --> 00:43:57,080
the PR departments at research

1031
00:44:02,980 --> 00:44:00,770
institutions because their whole job is

1032
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:02,990
to attract attention and funding to

1033
00:44:09,099 --> 00:44:06,290
their institution and you do that by

1034
00:44:11,770 --> 00:44:09,109
making it appear that you've made huge

1035
00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:11,780
science discoveries and so PR

1036
00:44:15,250 --> 00:44:13,280
departments at universities will often

1037
00:44:18,430 --> 00:44:15,260
exaggerate or put these wild and crazy

1038
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:18,440
headlines on research that comes out of

1039
00:44:23,230 --> 00:44:20,810
their Institute and I use two examples

1040
00:44:25,810 --> 00:44:23,240
of actual headlines one pill cures all

1041
00:44:28,570 --> 00:44:25,820
disease and invisibility cloaks are real

1042
00:44:30,310 --> 00:44:28,580
those are actual headlines that came out

1043
00:44:31,930 --> 00:44:30,320
of University PR departments over the

1044
00:44:35,170 --> 00:44:31,940
last I don't know five or eight years

1045
00:44:39,599 --> 00:44:35,180
and the headlines grossly misrepresented

1046
00:44:42,609 --> 00:44:39,609
what the actual research had been and

1047
00:44:44,980 --> 00:44:42,619
the hope the whole reason that this

1048
00:44:47,260 --> 00:44:44,990
happens is because the institutions

1049
00:44:50,290 --> 00:44:47,270
desperately need to attract attention

1050
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:50,300
and funding and so if there is anything

1051
00:44:55,450 --> 00:44:53,330
outrageous or unusual or surprising that

1052
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:55,460
comes out of it you'll not only hear

1053
00:44:58,660 --> 00:44:57,170
about it you'll hear about it in letters

1054
00:45:03,609 --> 00:44:58,670
that are twenty five feet tall and

1055
00:45:05,290 --> 00:45:03,619
blinking and flashing so until I hear

1056
00:45:08,650 --> 00:45:05,300
these kind of headlines coming out of

1057
00:45:09,970 --> 00:45:08,660
major research institutions and then

1058
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:09,980
everyone in the world would be jumping

1059
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:11,570
on it to replicate it the same way they

1060
00:45:15,790 --> 00:45:13,970
do with the fusion discoveries and and

1061
00:45:18,310 --> 00:45:15,800
the discoveries they make at the major

1062
00:45:20,050 --> 00:45:18,320
particle colliders everyone has to jump

1063
00:45:21,730 --> 00:45:20,060
on the bandwagon to replicate it they've

1064
00:45:25,089 --> 00:45:21,740
replicated the gravitational wave

1065
00:45:26,620 --> 00:45:25,099
detection you don't have the hardware to

1066
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:26,630
do that everywhere but wherever they did

1067
00:45:28,980 --> 00:45:27,410
they have

1068
00:45:32,259 --> 00:45:28,990
and if something of this magnitude

1069
00:45:33,549 --> 00:45:32,269
happened in psychology I'm pretty sure

1070
00:45:35,650 --> 00:45:33,559
the same thing would come out in the

1071
00:45:37,539 --> 00:45:35,660
news maybe you're right and I'm wrong

1072
00:45:40,359 --> 00:45:37,549
and it hasn't I've missed it I will

1073
00:45:44,109 --> 00:45:40,369
absolutely take pleasure in correcting

1074
00:45:46,839 --> 00:45:44,119
my show and and reporting on on this new

1075
00:45:50,740 --> 00:45:46,849
generally accepted fact if if it does in

1076
00:45:52,749 --> 00:45:50,750
fact exist so you kind of touched on

1077
00:45:55,450 --> 00:45:52,759
this before but tell us more about

1078
00:45:57,880 --> 00:45:55,460
skeptoid where that show is heading and

1079
00:46:00,910 --> 00:45:57,890
you know is it come out every week and

1080
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:00,920
use you said you mentioned sometimes you

1081
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:03,650
know users or listeners right in do you

1082
00:46:07,210 --> 00:46:05,450
have interviews is that part of it or do

1083
00:46:10,150 --> 00:46:07,220
you plan on changing the format at all

1084
00:46:11,799 --> 00:46:10,160
tell us more about you know so it's it

1085
00:46:15,009 --> 00:46:11,809
comes out every every seven o'clock

1086
00:46:17,019 --> 00:46:15,019
every Tuesday morning has for almost 11

1087
00:46:18,249 --> 00:46:17,029
years now and only missed one week and

1088
00:46:22,240 --> 00:46:18,259
that was the week that unfortunately my

1089
00:46:24,460 --> 00:46:22,250
sister passed away back in 2007 but

1090
00:46:27,039 --> 00:46:24,470
other than that it's a never missed an

1091
00:46:30,279 --> 00:46:27,049
episode it's it's short each episode is

1092
00:46:34,930 --> 00:46:30,289
between 12 and 14 minutes they're single

1093
00:46:36,849 --> 00:46:34,940
subject so if you want to you know pick

1094
00:46:38,559 --> 00:46:36,859
your pick your topic there is a show

1095
00:46:39,249 --> 00:46:38,569
that's specifically about that and about

1096
00:46:41,589 --> 00:46:39,259
nothing else

1097
00:46:45,549 --> 00:46:41,599
there's no chitchat there's no meet

1098
00:46:48,519 --> 00:46:45,559
selling what's going on etc etc it's

1099
00:46:50,829 --> 00:46:48,529
just pure content single subject short

1100
00:46:52,779 --> 00:46:50,839
format and it's basically just me

1101
00:46:55,509 --> 00:46:52,789
talking so it's a spoken word show it's

1102
00:46:57,609 --> 00:46:55,519
not an interview show and that's you

1103
00:46:59,589 --> 00:46:57,619
know almost all podcasts are our

1104
00:47:01,690 --> 00:46:59,599
interview podcasts I don't have the data

1105
00:47:03,849 --> 00:47:01,700
but I bet if we sat down and did an

1106
00:47:05,829 --> 00:47:03,859
analysis we'd find that over 90% of them

1107
00:47:07,299 --> 00:47:05,839
are interview shows and I always wanted

1108
00:47:10,779 --> 00:47:07,309
to avoid that since that's what everyone

1109
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:10,789
else is doing so we got a talk it's fun

1110
00:47:13,900 --> 00:47:12,170
to talk like we said even at the

1111
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:13,910
beginning or sure we have very different

1112
00:47:17,620 --> 00:47:15,650
points of view and one of the things

1113
00:47:20,019 --> 00:47:17,630
that's been a longtime frustration for

1114
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:20,029
me is and I give you a ton of credit for

1115
00:47:24,460 --> 00:47:22,490
coming on the show and facing you know

1116
00:47:27,519 --> 00:47:24,470
tough questions and that kind of thing

1117
00:47:29,650 --> 00:47:27,529
but this kind of dialogue I think is not

1118
00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:29,660
just interesting to people but I think

1119
00:47:34,240 --> 00:47:31,250
it's important you know I mean

1120
00:47:38,349 --> 00:47:34,250
especially in the climate were on now

1121
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:38,359
were groups just seem to choose not to

1122
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:41,370
talk and to just completely

1123
00:47:47,090 --> 00:47:43,770
arise themselves you know III think the

1124
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:47,100
discussion the dialog is important sure

1125
00:47:51,860 --> 00:47:50,010
III enjoy it thoroughly it's just s that

1126
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:51,870
was just what my show is not about just

1127
00:47:56,570 --> 00:47:53,850
because you know that's that's a

1128
00:47:58,460 --> 00:47:56,580
separate thing there's a I I very much

1129
00:48:00,560 --> 00:47:58,470
appreciate what you're saying I enjoy

1130
00:48:02,030 --> 00:48:00,570
the engagement very much and I think if

1131
00:48:04,610 --> 00:48:02,040
I were to do interviews it would

1132
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:04,620
exclusively be with people that that I

1133
00:48:09,890 --> 00:48:07,650
disagree with either that or I would do

1134
00:48:11,450 --> 00:48:09,900
the opposite kind of show where it would

1135
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:11,460
just be more straight science reporting

1136
00:48:15,860 --> 00:48:13,170
and I would just bring on scientists and

1137
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:15,870
have them discuss their work and you

1138
00:48:19,070 --> 00:48:17,610
know I asked them questions in a way to

1139
00:48:21,470 --> 00:48:19,080
frame it that the general public can

1140
00:48:24,110 --> 00:48:21,480
understand and appreciate because you

1141
00:48:26,060 --> 00:48:24,120
know I think science literacy is one of

1142
00:48:27,980 --> 00:48:26,070
our nation's weak points and I think

1143
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:27,990
it's a place where we can do the most

1144
00:48:32,510 --> 00:48:30,930
good by helping people to become more

1145
00:48:34,550 --> 00:48:32,520
scientifically literate giving people

1146
00:48:37,100 --> 00:48:34,560
the tools to understand what's real and

1147
00:48:40,370 --> 00:48:37,110
what's not helping people to recognize

1148
00:48:43,430 --> 00:48:40,380
science from pseudoscience I mean I go

1149
00:48:45,500 --> 00:48:43,440
out with friends for dinner and almost

1150
00:48:47,240 --> 00:48:45,510
everyone will be talking about the

1151
00:48:50,150 --> 00:48:47,250
latest juice clense that they're doing

1152
00:48:52,970 --> 00:48:50,160
or the latest super food that they're

1153
00:48:55,550 --> 00:48:52,980
eating that this misunderstanding of

1154
00:48:58,220 --> 00:48:55,560
basic sciences is just absolutely

1155
00:49:01,490 --> 00:48:58,230
rampant in our culture and I think

1156
00:49:03,260 --> 00:49:01,500
there's a lot of room to improve the

1157
00:49:05,390 --> 00:49:03,270
world by improving general science

1158
00:49:08,330 --> 00:49:05,400
literacy so that's kind of the whole

1159
00:49:10,190 --> 00:49:08,340
purpose behind skeptoid the podcast and

1160
00:49:13,130 --> 00:49:10,200
in the larger sense skeptoid media the

1161
00:49:15,530 --> 00:49:13,140
nonprofit great so our guest again has

1162
00:49:16,910 --> 00:49:15,540
been Brian Dunning skeptoid you just

1163
00:49:19,490 --> 00:49:16,920
heard of the podcast and you're also

1164
00:49:22,150 --> 00:49:19,500
gonna check out his new movie that you

1165
00:49:25,580 --> 00:49:22,160
can watch completely for free on YouTube

1166
00:49:27,590 --> 00:49:25,590
principles of curiosity Brian thanks

1167
00:49:30,500 --> 00:49:27,600
again so much for joining me thank you

1168
00:49:32,180 --> 00:49:30,510
for having me on it's always good thanks

1169
00:49:34,820 --> 00:49:32,190
again to Brian Dunning for joining me

1170
00:49:37,370 --> 00:49:34,830
today on skeptic oh I could go on and on

1171
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:37,380
about how surprised I am that Brian

1172
00:49:42,490 --> 00:49:39,890
didn't know the extensive work in

1173
00:49:44,510 --> 00:49:42,500
precognition research that

1174
00:49:49,940 --> 00:49:44,520
parapsychologists have done over the

1175
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:49,950
years but I'm not surprised at all but

1176
00:49:54,540 --> 00:49:52,650
for the benefit of you listening because

1177
00:49:56,540 --> 00:49:54,550
we really didn't get into that for him

1178
00:49:59,940 --> 00:49:56,550
and it really is an amazingly

1179
00:50:02,220 --> 00:49:59,950
interesting bit of science and an

1180
00:50:04,740 --> 00:50:02,230
interesting chapter in science history

1181
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:04,750
particularly because of Wiseman's

1182
00:50:10,050 --> 00:50:08,010
deception and then Daryl BEM

1183
00:50:12,780 --> 00:50:10,060
follow-through and that you know so

1184
00:50:14,810 --> 00:50:12,790
Daryl BEM publishes the study it gets

1185
00:50:17,820 --> 00:50:14,820
this considerable amount of attention

1186
00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:17,830
Richard Wiseman comes on the scene and

1187
00:50:24,900 --> 00:50:20,250
just debunks it and does this whole

1188
00:50:27,450 --> 00:50:24,910
dramatic debunking exercise that that

1189
00:50:31,620 --> 00:50:27,460
for anyone who's serious about it is

1190
00:50:34,310 --> 00:50:31,630
completely unfair and unconvincing but

1191
00:50:37,859 --> 00:50:34,320
it fulfills the desired goal in terms of

1192
00:50:40,380 --> 00:50:37,869
clouding Daryl BEM work and then it

1193
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:40,390
further obscures what he does later

1194
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:43,690
which is he does a proper replication

1195
00:50:48,359 --> 00:50:45,130
that has actually replicates the

1196
00:50:51,420 --> 00:50:48,369
experiment 90 times and then publishes

1197
00:50:55,950 --> 00:50:51,430
that so anyways I discuss a lot of this

1198
00:50:58,680 --> 00:50:55,960
in episode 328 when I had a chance to

1199
00:51:02,730 --> 00:50:58,690
talk to dr. Michael Britt who was a bit

1200
00:51:04,740 --> 00:51:02,740
of a skeptic and had done a show on the

1201
00:51:07,050 --> 00:51:04,750
Daryl BEM thing and of course he got it

1202
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:07,060
totally wrong but then hey what are you

1203
00:51:11,470 --> 00:51:07,570
gonna do

1204
00:51:17,890 --> 00:51:14,230
I'll show you what a complete charade

1205
00:51:20,140 --> 00:51:17,900
and just hijacking of science this whole

1206
00:51:22,420 --> 00:51:20,150
thing is but to get there maybe we

1207
00:51:26,290 --> 00:51:22,430
should jump to the end story which is

1208
00:51:29,650 --> 00:51:26,300
here's what was published in 2015 a

1209
00:51:33,370 --> 00:51:29,660
study by Daryl BEM and others titled

1210
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:33,380
feeling the future a meta-analysis of 90

1211
00:51:39,099 --> 00:51:35,810
experiments on the anomalous

1212
00:51:41,020 --> 00:51:39,109
anticipation of random future events and

1213
00:51:44,260 --> 00:51:41,030
I'll read from you from the epoch from

1214
00:51:46,180 --> 00:51:44,270
the abstract in 2011 dr. Daryl BEM

1215
00:51:47,740 --> 00:51:46,190
published nine experiments in the

1216
00:51:52,210 --> 00:51:47,750
Journal of Personality and Social

1217
00:51:55,330 --> 00:51:52,220
Psychology demonstrating precognition to

1218
00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:55,340
encourage replications all materials

1219
00:52:00,340 --> 00:51:57,410
needed to conduct them were made

1220
00:52:02,290 --> 00:52:00,350
available upon request it's important to

1221
00:52:04,630 --> 00:52:02,300
note that there is a guy who was very

1222
00:52:06,870 --> 00:52:04,640
much into open science was encouraging

1223
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:06,880
replication from the beginning

1224
00:52:13,780 --> 00:52:10,010
continuing with the abstract we hear

1225
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:13,790
report a meta-analysis of 90 experiments

1226
00:52:19,180 --> 00:52:16,130
done by different experimenters

1227
00:52:21,849 --> 00:52:19,190
different labs exactly the kind of best

1228
00:52:23,950 --> 00:52:21,859
science that we would expect 33

1229
00:52:28,300 --> 00:52:23,960
laboratories to be exact in 14 countries

1230
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:28,310
that yielded an overall effect greater

1231
00:52:36,030 --> 00:52:32,330
than Six Sigma so P 1 point 2 to the 10

1232
00:52:38,890 --> 00:52:36,040
to the minus 10 that is a gaudy gaudy

1233
00:52:41,770 --> 00:52:38,900
statistic and he says this greatly

1234
00:52:44,530 --> 00:52:41,780
exceeds the criterion for decisive

1235
00:52:47,500 --> 00:52:44,540
evidence in support of the experimental

1236
00:52:50,070 --> 00:52:47,510
hypothesis I've listened to your shows I

1237
00:52:53,260 --> 00:52:50,080
don't think you are a fire-breathing

1238
00:52:55,030 --> 00:52:53,270
skeptic or a disinformation agent or

1239
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:55,040
someone who's intentionally going out to

1240
00:52:59,500 --> 00:52:57,290
try and mislead people but I'll tell you

1241
00:53:02,680 --> 00:52:59,510
what happened here if you look at the

1242
00:53:05,290 --> 00:53:02,690
time line Daryl BEM publishes this study

1243
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:05,300
that we're talking about in January of

1244
00:53:14,290 --> 00:53:11,450
2011 then Richard Wiseman who is been

1245
00:53:17,050 --> 00:53:14,300
accused and has an unbelievable amount

1246
00:53:19,300 --> 00:53:17,060
of evidence against him being deceptive

1247
00:53:21,609 --> 00:53:19,310
in these ways and I'll play you a clip

1248
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:21,619
from Daryl BEM in a minute where he

1249
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:23,450
calls him out on being deceptive I've

1250
00:53:27,079 --> 00:53:24,690
also interviewed

1251
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:27,089
dr. Rupert Sheldrake Cambridge biologist

1252
00:53:33,170 --> 00:53:30,810
who did a one-on-one debate with Wiseman

1253
00:53:35,599 --> 00:53:33,180
on this show and called him deceptive

1254
00:53:39,050 --> 00:53:35,609
but here is how the deception was played

1255
00:53:43,010 --> 00:53:39,060
out in this case imagine this Ben

1256
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:43,020
publishes in January of 2011 the paper

1257
00:53:47,720 --> 00:53:44,970
actually didn't even come out until

1258
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:47,730
March but it was available to people in

1259
00:53:53,089 --> 00:53:51,210
January Wiseman comes out and says okay

1260
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:53,099
we're doing a replication of this anyone

1261
00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:54,690
who knit wants to do a replication you

1262
00:54:00,470 --> 00:53:57,450
have to have it in by June okay first of

1263
00:54:02,390 --> 00:54:00,480
all that is unprecedented unheard of

1264
00:54:05,059 --> 00:54:02,400
unreasonable and doesn't make any sense

1265
00:54:07,550 --> 00:54:05,069
why would there be a time limit of six

1266
00:54:09,740 --> 00:54:07,560
months our psychologist social

1267
00:54:11,930 --> 00:54:09,750
psychologist supposed to drop everything

1268
00:54:14,270 --> 00:54:11,940
that they're doing and try and replicate

1269
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:14,280
this experiment are they supposed to get

1270
00:54:20,569 --> 00:54:16,890
the funding for it Ben himself did you

1271
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:20,579
ask him did you ask Wiseman then not uh

1272
00:54:26,150 --> 00:54:23,490
not on this case but just watchword the

1273
00:54:29,780 --> 00:54:26,160
way it plays out right I mean this guy

1274
00:54:33,140 --> 00:54:29,790
BAM was opened replication and he did it

1275
00:54:36,050 --> 00:54:33,150
uh he compiled here as you can see

1276
00:54:39,230 --> 00:54:36,060
ninety replications over the last five

1277
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:39,240
years it's unreasonable for anyone we

1278
00:54:43,849 --> 00:54:40,530
don't even have to ask it's

1279
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:43,859
transparently unreasonable to say that

1280
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:45,930
this is going to be the final finish

1281
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:47,970
line six months from now for all

1282
00:54:51,890 --> 00:54:50,130
replications and then to hurry and

1283
00:54:54,829 --> 00:54:51,900
publish your results but he does

1284
00:54:57,079 --> 00:54:54,839
something much worse let me then play

1285
00:54:59,780 --> 00:54:57,089
for you the second clip and that's from

1286
00:55:01,430 --> 00:54:59,790
Daryl BEM when he appeared on my show

1287
00:55:03,890 --> 00:55:01,440
and he talked about this very situation

1288
00:55:05,990 --> 00:55:03,900
here you go hope you can hear it when

1289
00:55:08,270 --> 00:55:06,000
you publish an article even if it's of

1290
00:55:10,010 --> 00:55:08,280
your own three experiments you always

1291
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:10,020
have a literature review section where

1292
00:55:15,349 --> 00:55:12,690
you you talk about all the previous

1293
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:15,359
research and known research on the topic

1294
00:55:20,660 --> 00:55:17,930
before you present your own data and

1295
00:55:23,750 --> 00:55:20,670
what do I see Minh never tells people is

1296
00:55:25,220 --> 00:55:23,760
that they knew that there were three

1297
00:55:26,839 --> 00:55:25,230
other studies that had been submitted

1298
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:26,849
and completed and two of the three

1299
00:55:32,150 --> 00:55:29,490
showed statistically significant results

1300
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:32,160
replicating my results but you you know

1301
00:55:35,870 --> 00:55:33,810
you don't know that from reading his

1302
00:55:38,750 --> 00:55:35,880
article and that that borders on

1303
00:55:42,260 --> 00:55:40,760
so I know that's kind of long but you

1304
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:42,270
know there's a lot of detail to get in

1305
00:55:46,190 --> 00:55:43,410
there and actually there's a lot of

1306
00:55:48,170 --> 00:55:46,200
detail that I left out regarding effect

1307
00:55:50,510 --> 00:55:48,180
size and statistical significance all

1308
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:50,520
the stuff that's really interesting at

1309
00:55:56,500 --> 00:55:52,650
least to me or to anyone who's really

1310
00:56:00,109 --> 00:55:56,510
interested in answering this question

1311
00:56:01,579 --> 00:56:00,119
scientifically there is really a lot to

1312
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:01,589
dig into and it's really not that hard

1313
00:56:05,390 --> 00:56:04,770
you just have to have the desire to look

1314
00:56:07,700 --> 00:56:05,400
it up

1315
00:56:10,310 --> 00:56:07,710
so that's gonna do it for this episode

1316
00:56:14,660 --> 00:56:10,320
of skeptical I will tee up one question

1317
00:56:19,010 --> 00:56:14,670
is the skeptical thing over now is it

1318
00:56:21,890 --> 00:56:19,020
over or is it not over I'll tell you

1319
00:56:24,950 --> 00:56:21,900
what Brian Dunning still gets a hundred

1320
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:24,960
and fifty thousand people downloading

1321
00:56:31,790 --> 00:56:29,010
his podcast every week now I don't know

1322
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:31,800
who dozen people are and I don't know

1323
00:56:37,190 --> 00:56:33,930
that I'd have a lot in common with them

1324
00:56:40,940 --> 00:56:37,200
but they're out there but for the rest

1325
00:56:44,720 --> 00:56:40,950
of us and for the overall zeitgeist that

1326
00:56:45,980 --> 00:56:44,730
were in is the skeptical thing over

1327
00:56:48,050 --> 00:56:45,990
that's the question

1328
00:56:50,390 --> 00:56:48,060
love to hear from you either from the

1329
00:56:52,670 --> 00:56:50,400
skeptical web site the skeptical forum

1330
00:56:53,540 --> 00:56:52,680
Facebook however you find me wherever

1331
00:56:56,540 --> 00:56:53,550
you get to me

1332
00:56:58,309 --> 00:56:56,550
let me know what you think I have a

1333
00:57:00,319 --> 00:56:58,319
number of really good jokes coming up

1334
00:57:03,650 --> 00:57:00,329
I'm really excited to bring them to you

1335
00:57:05,599 --> 00:57:03,660
as always I appreciate you listening I

1336
00:57:07,730 --> 00:57:05,609
appreciate you sharing and telling

1337
00:57:10,250 --> 00:57:07,740
people about the show and I of course

1338
00:57:13,460 --> 00:57:10,260
love hearing from people who have gotten

1339
00:57:15,260 --> 00:57:13,470
value out of the show so if you're out

1340
00:57:16,430 --> 00:57:15,270
there and you like the show tell me I'd

1341
00:57:17,630 --> 00:57:16,440
love to hear from you

1342
00:57:20,540 --> 00:57:17,640
well that's going to do it for this